Recently I did a follow up piece to The Submissive Male Construct and Nice Guys after receiving a thoughtful comment from a reader. The follow up piece, Revisiting: The Submissive Male Construct and Nice Guys
also drew reader comments and today I would like to focus in on one of those comments.
“As a woman, I hear a lot of men whine about not being able to find partners. This rant sounds almost exactly the same, with just a couple words changed here and there. They are all self-described "nice guys" or "submissive guys". Then they attribute the single fact that prevents them from romantic success. They ignore their choices, their personality, their lifestyle, their emotional and mental state, their cock size, their hygiene, their hair color, their dating habits, their finances - everything. If he can't find a woman to date it's because he's so "nice/submissive" and women secretly want "dominant/macho/jerks" men. Isn't that pitiful?
I have also found that there is a species of "nice guy" who seems to be remarkably emotionally manipulative. I think men can find themselves self-identifying as nice, when the truth is they are unable to assert their needs and boundaries in an honest, direct, and healthy way. When their unspoken needs are unmet, they can become passive aggressive.
This is the single most common reason I choose not to enter into relationships with "nice guys". I *like* submissive men. I do *not* like whiny passive aggressive guys reeking of desperation. I'd often rather date an honest "jerk".
(I am not trying to say that all nice/submissive men are like this. Just that there are reasons women put "nice guy" in quotes.)”
This reader does make some very valid points, points which I touched on in the original essay and in the follow up and points that were brought up in comments by other readers. Certainly there are men who wish to project themselves as nice guys, who perhaps even sincerely believe that they are nice guys, but who are as this reader states are, “emotionally manipulative”, “…unable to assert their needs and boundaries in an honest, direct, and healthy way”, and “whiny passive aggressive guys”.
From the beginning, my intent for this blog has always been to offer a forum for the open and honest exchange of opinions and ideas free from censorship which is the reason I choose not to moderate comments. Every person is unique and a product of both unique world views and opinions. People are welcome to disagree with the ideas I present here as much as they want as someone disagreeing with my ideas is never taken as a personal attack on me. In fact I value the opinions and observations of others because quite often I feel I learn something and in some instances my own opinions are sometimes changed by a well thought out and intelligent argument that proposes an alternative view. Of course in return I do reserve the right to comment on the comments with which I find myself in disagreement, and that is the reason I have chosen to address this one. The one statement I take issue with from this comment is “As a woman, I hear a lot of men whine about not being able to find partners. This rant sounds almost exactly the same, with just a couple words changed here and there.” In fairness I don’t think either essay could be fairly categorized as a “rant”. A rant at least according to Merriam-Webster is “a long angry speech or scolding” and certainly that was not my intent in writing either article. By dismissing my opinions as a “rant” I suggest the reader missed the entire point of what I have written. While she tempered her initial comments with “I am not trying to say that all nice/submissive men are like this” at the end, it seems to me that “This is the single most common reason I choose not to enter into relationships with ‘nice guys’ ” makes it rather obvious that she does in fact view all nice/submissive men in the same negative way. This makes as much sense as the argument, whales are mammals and whales live in the sea, therefore all mammals live in the sea. In the parlance of logical argument construction, this is what is called building a valid argument from false premises, and arriving at a false conclusion. Yes, whales are mammals and whales do live in the sea but that of course does not mean that all mammals live in the sea. Only some mammals do. In the same way, the argument that some men who self-identify as “nice guys” are actually manipulative, relationally dysfunctional and prone to blame others for their own short-comings, all men who self-identify as “nice guys” are manipulative, relationally dysfunctional and prone to blame others for their own short-comings, is equally false.
The true facts are quite plain, some men who self-identify as “nice guys” have some or all of the negative traits listed by the commenter, but there are in fact legitimately nice guys who do not have any of those traits. Equally true is the fact that some women ignore nice guys as potential relationship partners simply on the basis that they have a decided preference for relationships with men who are bad boy types because they find this type more interesting or challenging. I doubt very much that I would ever convince women of that type to give consideration to exploring the possibilities of a relationship with a nice guy. My only issue with such women is that quite often nice guys are more than acceptable to them as friendship material; they simply aren’t interested in having a romantic relationship with them. My intent in writing the articles was simply to appeal to women who may have held negative opinions about nice guys but don’t have a decided preference for bad boy types, to keep an open mind about the possibilities of a relationship with an authentic nice guy.
Even though I found things to disagree with in this comment, I do appreciate that this person took the time to express her opinion and I respect that a great deal. If she finds meaning in dating “honest jerks” then I see nothing wrong with that as we all have our own unique proclivities when it comes to relationship preferences.
also drew reader comments and today I would like to focus in on one of those comments.
“As a woman, I hear a lot of men whine about not being able to find partners. This rant sounds almost exactly the same, with just a couple words changed here and there. They are all self-described "nice guys" or "submissive guys". Then they attribute the single fact that prevents them from romantic success. They ignore their choices, their personality, their lifestyle, their emotional and mental state, their cock size, their hygiene, their hair color, their dating habits, their finances - everything. If he can't find a woman to date it's because he's so "nice/submissive" and women secretly want "dominant/macho/jerks" men. Isn't that pitiful?
I have also found that there is a species of "nice guy" who seems to be remarkably emotionally manipulative. I think men can find themselves self-identifying as nice, when the truth is they are unable to assert their needs and boundaries in an honest, direct, and healthy way. When their unspoken needs are unmet, they can become passive aggressive.
This is the single most common reason I choose not to enter into relationships with "nice guys". I *like* submissive men. I do *not* like whiny passive aggressive guys reeking of desperation. I'd often rather date an honest "jerk".
(I am not trying to say that all nice/submissive men are like this. Just that there are reasons women put "nice guy" in quotes.)”
This reader does make some very valid points, points which I touched on in the original essay and in the follow up and points that were brought up in comments by other readers. Certainly there are men who wish to project themselves as nice guys, who perhaps even sincerely believe that they are nice guys, but who are as this reader states are, “emotionally manipulative”, “…unable to assert their needs and boundaries in an honest, direct, and healthy way”, and “whiny passive aggressive guys”.
From the beginning, my intent for this blog has always been to offer a forum for the open and honest exchange of opinions and ideas free from censorship which is the reason I choose not to moderate comments. Every person is unique and a product of both unique world views and opinions. People are welcome to disagree with the ideas I present here as much as they want as someone disagreeing with my ideas is never taken as a personal attack on me. In fact I value the opinions and observations of others because quite often I feel I learn something and in some instances my own opinions are sometimes changed by a well thought out and intelligent argument that proposes an alternative view. Of course in return I do reserve the right to comment on the comments with which I find myself in disagreement, and that is the reason I have chosen to address this one. The one statement I take issue with from this comment is “As a woman, I hear a lot of men whine about not being able to find partners. This rant sounds almost exactly the same, with just a couple words changed here and there.” In fairness I don’t think either essay could be fairly categorized as a “rant”. A rant at least according to Merriam-Webster is “a long angry speech or scolding” and certainly that was not my intent in writing either article. By dismissing my opinions as a “rant” I suggest the reader missed the entire point of what I have written. While she tempered her initial comments with “I am not trying to say that all nice/submissive men are like this” at the end, it seems to me that “This is the single most common reason I choose not to enter into relationships with ‘nice guys’ ” makes it rather obvious that she does in fact view all nice/submissive men in the same negative way. This makes as much sense as the argument, whales are mammals and whales live in the sea, therefore all mammals live in the sea. In the parlance of logical argument construction, this is what is called building a valid argument from false premises, and arriving at a false conclusion. Yes, whales are mammals and whales do live in the sea but that of course does not mean that all mammals live in the sea. Only some mammals do. In the same way, the argument that some men who self-identify as “nice guys” are actually manipulative, relationally dysfunctional and prone to blame others for their own short-comings, all men who self-identify as “nice guys” are manipulative, relationally dysfunctional and prone to blame others for their own short-comings, is equally false.
The true facts are quite plain, some men who self-identify as “nice guys” have some or all of the negative traits listed by the commenter, but there are in fact legitimately nice guys who do not have any of those traits. Equally true is the fact that some women ignore nice guys as potential relationship partners simply on the basis that they have a decided preference for relationships with men who are bad boy types because they find this type more interesting or challenging. I doubt very much that I would ever convince women of that type to give consideration to exploring the possibilities of a relationship with a nice guy. My only issue with such women is that quite often nice guys are more than acceptable to them as friendship material; they simply aren’t interested in having a romantic relationship with them. My intent in writing the articles was simply to appeal to women who may have held negative opinions about nice guys but don’t have a decided preference for bad boy types, to keep an open mind about the possibilities of a relationship with an authentic nice guy.
Even though I found things to disagree with in this comment, I do appreciate that this person took the time to express her opinion and I respect that a great deal. If she finds meaning in dating “honest jerks” then I see nothing wrong with that as we all have our own unique proclivities when it comes to relationship preferences.
